tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post6161538970401393113..comments2023-12-07T00:44:23.610-08:00Comments on The Trojan Heron: The ABCs of Political PatronageECKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13031277544085651063noreply@blogger.comBlogger98125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-30695267886815981812013-09-04T10:17:39.098-07:002013-09-04T10:17:39.098-07:00How many people that use power from Bonneville Po...How many people that use power from Bonneville Power know that 20% if their bills are for the salmon. Something you can but at your local grocery store?<br />I have to laugh every time I drive by Rock Island dam. The outlet for the fish to come back into the river probably kills half the fish that fall out of that pipe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-71315518757965598672013-09-04T08:24:57.892-07:002013-09-04T08:24:57.892-07:00 And is it a paid position? And is it a paid position?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-19743081042826114692013-09-04T08:22:25.968-07:002013-09-04T08:22:25.968-07:00So...who sits on the Housing Bank Commission?So...who sits on the Housing Bank Commission?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-51472801931311473672013-09-04T05:08:55.991-07:002013-09-04T05:08:55.991-07:00One further word about Browne's and local part...One further word about Browne's and local participation. I agree with the posters who say it is a valuation issue. If the people issuing the bid scope valued local participation, it would be in the scope. In other words, there would be a price preference for local suppliers. A 5% price break, for example, would mean that local suppliers could be within 5% of the lowest bid and still get the low-bid. If something like that is not included as part of the bid scope, then the buyer is not placing any value on local participation, and you get into the argument of "you have to accept the low bid to be responsible." Yes, that may be technically true, but it's because the bid scope did not scope any value for local participation in the first place.<br /><br />Then we also have the situation where our county and town governments go off-island for many services they could procure locally more inexpensively. Despite all the "buy local" talk, there really is no ethic for buying local, especially for big purchases. If there were, there would be programs and scoping that would place explicit value on it. In some states, like California, you can register with the state or county as a small, locally owned business. Then, the local municipality usually includes a scope item that requires such businesses to be considered first.<br /><br />Our county doesn't have anything like that. Washington doesn't have anything like that. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-22244819151101585282013-09-03T23:13:16.259-07:002013-09-03T23:13:16.259-07:00I wouldn't go so far as to say TI needs to get...I wouldn't go so far as to say TI needs to get their act together. I'd say they got a good one together, on short notice and made a huge impact last time <br /><br />We are all islanders that trust each other. So what should our next move be?<br />A printed flyer to rebuke the FOSJ? Finding the right candidate to support to bounce Ranker? Work on next years candidates for Lopez comissioner, PA, auditor, assessor, etc? <br />TI can be a work horse but it can only do so much. <br />Suggestions are welcome. <br />Get rid of the CD?<br />What actions now and money spent will have the best return?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-33421324634530030712013-09-03T22:30:08.800-07:002013-09-03T22:30:08.800-07:00Great discussion. This is where its at. This is th...Great discussion. This is where its at. This is the "community conversation for the rest of us." I don't know whatever became of that Trust Islanders thingee but this is a hard act to follow. Memo to Trust Islanders: Do something.<br /><br />I digress. I like Homes for Islanders. Subsidy? Not quite. Rural loan program. OPALCO does the same damn thing for our mutual benefit by tapping Rural Utility Service low interest loan pools for energy infrastructure. Really, Homes for Islanders isn't any different. The loans have to be paid back. Were the loan pools set up by the Feds which used tax dollars to create them. Yes. State of Washington does the same thing. Its called public policy. Roads are not just for poor folks. Nor is electrical infrastructure, and the old time Farm Home Loan programs in USDA have been around for a long, long time. They have evolved, but they help smooth over the market distortions in rural areas and help locals build stake. Is that a bad idea? No it is a good idea.<br /><br />As to the multiplier effect. Good heavens yes, we need to get a handle on this. Does anyone know the multiplier differential between tourism and real honest to God agriculture? It's shocking. Agriculture multiplier effect is massive compared to tourism. Also consider the capital flight problem. In a rural economy half the battle is to prevent money from leaving quickly so that it can circulate more locally before it leaves. <br /><br />The Port of Friday Harbor has the money. They have a legal obligation to promote and support economic development in tangible ways ... but they don't. That's a problem.<br /><br />And do you think you will get the kind of quality debate about community economics from our puny little hijacked Green Machine Economic Anti-Development Council? Don't hold your breath.<br /><br />The real conversation is here right now. And if Trust Islanders will get their act together maybe we'll have some other players in the game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-34028318032679856952013-09-03T21:22:01.360-07:002013-09-03T21:22:01.360-07:00Call it what you want, but many large cities requi...Call it what you want, but many large cities require builders to hire at least a percentage of local talent. (A good local carpenter is knowledgeable, not just a "worker.")<br /><br />That extra amount paid for local employment comes back and serves the very people this housing is being built for. I don't think anyone in the general public is getting hurt to a measurable extent. (A ton of money was just spent on buying property on Stuart Island in the name of "salmon recovery" that has nothing to do with actual salmon recovery and everything to do with graft and corruption.)<br /><br />But we must move on:<br /><br />1) Has the Port of Friday Harbor hired a local company to clear out the burn down? There has to be a least five dudes here with the machines to do this work. When?<br /><br />2) Is the Port interviewing local visionary architects/designers and engineers for a new low rise building? When?<br /><br />3) If Browne's comes in $400 bucks over, will they buy off-island instead?<br /><br />Simplistic? No, basic.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-17870931343810095552013-09-03T20:48:39.386-07:002013-09-03T20:48:39.386-07:00To those air heads that said the TH was only 4 to ...To those air heads that said the TH was only 4 to 7 people banging out drivel, I'd strongly suggest you read the last twenty or thirty posts herein. (What the heck, read em all.) Because:<br /><br />Man, are you wrong! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-15040693639783937932013-09-03T16:37:22.934-07:002013-09-03T16:37:22.934-07:00https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-doma...https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/housing/renting-v-buying/v/renting-vs--buying-a-home<br /><br /><br /><br />http://homes.yahoo.com/calculators/rent_vs_own.html<br /><br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/business/buy-rent-calculator.html?_r=0<br /><br />just a few of many<br /><br />thought provoking conversation! Is a part of the problem...that in our culture we do not have the ability to save and therefore spend up to or over whatever our income is? So buying is like a forced savings account if the value of the real estate goes up?<br /><br />I'm not sure about the rules for the homes for islanders. Are they allowed full appreciation? <br /><br />Just thoughts this conversation is bringing up for me off the top of my head.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-84710460149629234222013-09-03T16:19:55.876-07:002013-09-03T16:19:55.876-07:00Your right, business is business. Screw the people...Your right, business is business. Screw the people with low income. One word for ya. RENT. If you can't buy a house without a subsidized program, then do what people have done for generations and rent a place. <br />Not sure where it is codified into law that we owe low income people anything. <br />Guess roads, schools, police protection, fire protection and welfare for those most in need isn't enough. Guess we owe you help getting a house. <br />What's next? Cars for islanders? Yachts for islanders?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-38193787859262988322013-09-03T15:06:54.100-07:002013-09-03T15:06:54.100-07:00For the non-profit grant funded homes for islands ...For the non-profit grant funded homes for islands to do ANYTHING other than accept the low bid would be wholly inappropriate and leads to a very dangerous slippery slope. It not just $400 for lumber (again I don’t know these numbers), its $500 for the electrical, more for the roofing, plumbing, earthwork, hardware, fixtures, etc…it all adds up. <br /><br />Where does it stop? <br /><br />Who’s call is it to make?<br /><br />It’s just a little here a little there, it’s for the greater good…yeah I hear that every time someone wants to raise my taxes. Drop in the bucket the CD said.<br /> <br />Maybe you want the County not to award public works projects to the low bidder either. Maybe they should send work to some firm on Lopez because Jamie is friends with someone on their staff?<br /><br />Business is business folks. It’s black and white. Browne is a business too and they shop around. If you could guarantee Browne would buy my wood just because I’m “local” I would open up a saw mill tomorrow.<br /><br />Do you really want people I key positions, managing our tax dollars, having the discretion on where to spend our money?<br /><br />Really? Are you sure?<br /><br />-12:13Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-26985578704598569802013-09-03T14:07:39.543-07:002013-09-03T14:07:39.543-07:00There is a great article in the Sunday Sept. 1st S...There is a great article in the Sunday Sept. 1st Seattle Times Business section.<br /><br />It's called How Goya Became a Go-to Food Brand<br /><br />http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2021715529_goyagrowingxml.html<br /><br />I highly recommend people read it.<br /><br />The people who are content w/the decision to use an off island supplier for the affordable housing have not convinced me that is the correct choice. <br /><br />A savings of $400 amortized over 30 years for a home owner is negligible when compared to the value of local jobs and support of local businesses.<br /><br />I don't know if the Browne Bros were offered an opportunity to meet the lower bid or not. That said...I believe they use a very careful formula to figure out what they can afford to offer. And included in that consideration are their employees and their lives.<br /><br />They have employees who have worked there their entire adult lives and who may have an interesting perspective and clarity on how the decisions are made.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-17382750536004799792013-09-03T12:26:59.952-07:002013-09-03T12:26:59.952-07:00@11:57
Personally I think this kind of development...@11:57<br />Personally I think this kind of development suffers mostly from increased storm water regulations, driven by Ecology. That development, as do many others, had to turn an entire buildable lot into a storm water detention pond to provide treatment.<br /><br />@12:01<br />Let me try to respond to your “unicorn fart”:<br /><br />“just want to point out that the rest of us are footing part of the bill.” <br />Um, you are right we are. No argument there so why are you trying to make one?<br /><br />“Oh yeah, I'm sure there is some sort of property tax break as these aren't "allowed" to be assessed above a certain amount. “<br />What a bunch of crap that statement is. Take you buck shot BS elsewhere lets discuss facts here on TH. To quote you, If you are unwilling to realize or admit that, then rational debate with you would be close to pointless..<br /><br />“They are subsidized, by me and the half of the population that pays taxes. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are unwilling to realize or admit that, then rational debate with you would be close to pointless.”<br />Like I said, USDA funds the administration costs of the Homes for Islanders program. Each home owner pays for their own land and house.<br /><br />-12:13Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-23509526612661411032013-09-03T12:01:54.191-07:002013-09-03T12:01:54.191-07:00And those USDA "funds for the program" c...And those USDA "funds for the program" come from where again? <br />Magic? Out of the genie bottle? On the organic money tree? Unicorn farts?<br />No, it is tax dollars. It's a subsidy. Like I said, I don't disparage the hard work, just want to point out that the rest of us are footing part of the bill. <br />Oh yeah, I'm sure there is some sort of property tax break as these aren't "allowed" to be assessed above a certain amount. <br />They are subsidized, by me and the half of the population that pays taxes. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are unwilling to realize or admit that, then rational debate with you would be close to pointless. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-2830849663862741252013-09-03T11:57:14.343-07:002013-09-03T11:57:14.343-07:00@10:54
That makes sense. Everyone acts in their o...@10:54<br /><br />That makes sense. Everyone acts in their own self-interest. It's just that it shouldn't be portrayed as anything but that. It's hard enough to live out here. We get that. But expressions like "subsidizing Browne's" are invidious nonsense. Last time I looked, Browne's wasn't listed on the Fortune 500. I'm sure it's not easy for them to match mainland prices, provide decent paying jobs, benefits. I could be wrong, but I don't think they're gouging for the sake of gouging. I don't think they're gouging at all.<br /><br />Buy where you can and according to what you can afford. That's responsible spending.<br /><br />From a macroeconomic perspective, however, it would be nice to invest in people and businesses that produced a return on investment for local businesses. Obviously, you're not it. That's no knock on you, just the facts as you've stated them. Maybe if we had those kinds of investments and businesses, though, it would be easier for you too.<br /><br />Personally, I think we have a lot of extra costs around here because of the damn Friends and all the crap they pull. @10:54, if you want a lower cost of living out here, then get rid of the people who make trouble for every homeowner and business. Get rid of the people in the County who've doubled the budget in the last 10 years. Get rid of the people who want needless government programs built for urban and suburban environments and paid for on a rural tax base.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-10133036436569762382013-09-03T10:54:43.005-07:002013-09-03T10:54:43.005-07:00Hold on a second.
I know the Lampard Road develop...Hold on a second.<br /><br />I know the Lampard Road development used Island Concrete Products for their cement and Carlson Enterprises for their site work. There were many other local subs who had work on that project and even more people who just volunteered to help out. I know Mike Carlson was a big supporter of that project and I heard he greatly discounted his services.<br /><br />I am not going to fault them or “management” for going out and finding the best price they could, that’s free market basics. And if Browne held out on their portion of 2.5m over $400 per house then that was their choice too. I am sure they had an opportunity to work on their bid; they are very professional over there.<br /><br />If you have the means to buy locally that that’s great. For the rest of us, you are damn right I have a Costco card and make runs off island to buy groceries and stock our freezer. If you think I am an exception that you are out to lunch. Some families team up and alternate their Costco runs to save on travel expenses. You think we prefer to do that if we could afford to shop locally all the time?<br /><br />That $400? May not seem like a lot do you, but I just don’t have it. And if had been building a house on Lampard I would have made the same choice. And IMHO you are using “subsidized affordable housing” to insult the grueling work those families did building their own houses. Period.<br /><br />Those families have a loan in their name for 100% of all the costs associated with building each house. USDA funds the administration costs of the Homes for Islanders program only. <br />- 12:13<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-87828793459337174382013-09-03T10:14:01.673-07:002013-09-03T10:14:01.673-07:00@8:19
Homes for Islanders is a non profit entity w...@8:19<br />Homes for Islanders is a non profit entity who receives funding from the USDA. <br />That is subsidized housing. <br />Period. My tax dollars paying for these services. <br />I think some of these programs are good and I am not disparaging them, but of you think low income housing isn't subsidized then you wholly naive. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-15767589527224550272013-09-03T09:40:22.581-07:002013-09-03T09:40:22.581-07:00@6:19
You need a basic, and I really mean BASIC, ...@6:19<br /><br />You need a basic, and I really mean BASIC, course in economics. You need help with the multiplier effect.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-25046398714670200892013-09-03T09:30:01.852-07:002013-09-03T09:30:01.852-07:00You can't get through to people like @6:19. It...You can't get through to people like @6:19. It's me me me me me. They don't see connections. They only see themselves. I wonder if any of the people in Lampard Road have ever worked at Browne's or a company that relies on Browne's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-1975896242488952362013-09-03T09:26:25.269-07:002013-09-03T09:26:25.269-07:0012:13 and 8:19
Really? I don't think you'...12:13 and 8:19<br /><br />Really? I don't think you've thought this out. <br /><br />Buying local supports the very sort of people who need the housing.<br /><br />Don't you get it?<br /><br />Think about it. Think about it.<br /><br />My Dad had a small business here all his adult life. It's not as easy as it looks. I think in terms of...if I buy local..then that thing I need quick one day will be provided by the local person. They're holding it on their shelf for me but could not afford to do so...or at a reasonable price...w/out local business. My family is a huge supporter of Browne Lumber. I trust them entirely. Their bid was obviously not at all out of line. They are fair and hardworking and I wish you'd think through your arguments before you spew. <br /><br />With local buying you have a trickle in of local monies...jobs for locals who get paid and spend here...it's a win win. <br /><br />Honestly...sheesh <br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-42806207867706011512013-09-03T09:19:19.363-07:002013-09-03T09:19:19.363-07:00In short, @6:19 is defending the right of people i...In short, @6:19 is defending the right of people in affordable housing to have value flow one way -- towards them. When money and labor are donated to them, it's "value." When they spend money and labor in the local community, all of a sudden they're "subsidizing" us.<br /><br />It's very clear to me now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-10701241330035496662013-09-03T09:08:20.531-07:002013-09-03T09:08:20.531-07:00@8:19
It is great that you are leaving these comm...@8:19<br /><br />It is great that you are leaving these comments here. I'm not @6:47, but you're a great example of how language gets twisted around.<br /><br />If the Lampard Road residents paid $400 extra to Browne, that's not subsidizing them unless they received public assistance for it. A subsidy is financial support provided by a third party for the benefit of another. In a straight two-party transaction, there is no "subsidy," just mutual benefit via on a voluntary transaction. <br /><br />Alright, you don't see any benefit to buying local, so you value "buy local" at $0 instead of $400 or $10,000 or whatever number you want to pick. Okay, fair enough, but that's not a subsidy. It's just a reflection on what you value.<br /><br />The point is that the subsidy is created by where you get your money, not where you spend it. Where you spend it reflects your values. <br /><br />You're not defending the Lampard Road development so much as you are condemning every "buy local" effort that ever existed because you don't see any value there. Fine. Buy everything from China and eat food from Texas. Those are your values. You say you don't have anything against "buy local?" Of course you do. Those are your values, at least for housing supplies.<br /><br />Did you ask Browne to perhaps "donate" the $400 extra or did you just jump on the lowest price?<br /><br />The point that's been made on the TH over and over again, especially about residents who live in affordable housing, is that we should be under no illusion as to the affordable housing system, the people who live in them, or the developers. They are pursuing their own self-interest. That's the American way, so good on ya. If you can get something cheaper, then go for it. However, that's all it is, and it's an expression of your values. The Lampard Road development is only that. It's not "community." It's not la la land feel-goodiness. It's just people pursuing their own self-interest and buying everything as cheaply as possible, valuing local participation at $0. Nothing wrong with that, but that's the reality.<br /><br />Thanks for making that clear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-65220731596246679302013-09-03T08:54:59.488-07:002013-09-03T08:54:59.488-07:00Is it too much to ask to see the 2.5 million or so...Is it too much to ask to see the 2.5 million or so dollars put in to the local economy, over $10,000 difference? -@6:47<br /><br />This is a miss understanding. I know that they used Island Concrete Products and Carlson Enterprises for their site work. I heard Carlson did a lot off discounted/free work to help those families out. There were many local subs who got work and even more who just plain volunteered.<br /><br />Our local economy did not miss out on 2.5m but maybe Browne didn't get a cut because they didn't step it up.<br /><br />No matter how you spin it, building out that development and finding homes for local families is a win for our community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-25918680650182014302013-09-03T08:19:56.560-07:002013-09-03T08:19:56.560-07:00@6:47
Your argument is absurd. And full of so much...@6:47<br />Your argument is absurd. And full of so much BS I don’t even know where to begin.<br />$400 extra for lumber on each house, why stop there? Those families should have bought local for everything on their house, hell they can afford it. It’s not like they are barely making it or anything. <br />Subsidized? Please elaborate. They are on the hook for every cent spent on their house. The only subsidy they received is the opportunity to put in hard labor in lieu of a cash deposit. They still have a 100% loan, but just didn’t have to come up with the initial 20%.<br />What you should be saying is, why the hell couldn’t Browne lower their price by $400 a house to help out their own community.<br />Better yet, I think the next “subsidized housing” is going on next to the elementary school. Why don’t you show up onsite and tell those hard working families, many working full time at their job then putting in another 40 hours building their house that they need to step it up and SUBSIDIZE Browne.<br />I got nothing against buy local but you don’t know how it really applies…<br /> <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2025252027978265531.post-49115037054453418642013-09-03T07:32:34.892-07:002013-09-03T07:32:34.892-07:00"Please prove you are not a robot". To p..."Please prove you are not a robot". To post here. <br /><br />With our exponential advances in technology, I believe we are only a few years away from "Please prove you are not a human". <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com